Geek feminism and relational aggression: Are we the real “Mean Girls”?

Thank you for putting into written words something I've been struggling with for years.It was hard enough being an awkward, bean poll of a girl going into my local comic shop at age 14, asking for the latest Uncanny or Wolverine title, and have some guy stare blankly at me while chewing his own cud exclaim, "Are you picking those up for your brother?"Fast forward a decade and change, I have grown and groomed myself into something society would consider "pleasing to the eye" and still continue my geeky pursuits of comic reading, video game playing, and dressing up like it's Halloween every chance I get. I have grown used to the comments from guys salivating over "what's beneath that spandex suit!" but cannot get past the slew of comments from women I find on the net, at conventions, or even at my local comic shop! "She's just some babe they hired to wear that outfit," or "You want the manga section, right? It's over there" (and that came from a girl at a comic shop I frequented in Orlando who was wearing an Avengers tee-shirt!). Though I am not a mainstay in the gaming world, I can attest I have encountered all this and more in my fandom of comic s and costuming.I wish more geek girls would embrace their fellow females. While we've grown in numbers over the years, we're still a rare breed.Thank you for your article, and you have a new reader to your site because of it!

Now, I'm a guy so maybe it's possible I've just missed all of this when hanging out with my gamer-girl friends. And, true, it's unquestionable that some of this exists, especially the so called "Hardcore gamer population" where people actually think things like “Oh, she’s not a real geek/she’s not a real gamer,” with the understood end of the sentence being, “…like I am.”I do feel as though I should point something out there. Girl or guy, people who actually think/talk/act like that are morons, and most gamers despise them. There's no such thing as gamer pride anymore. That might have been true when it was purely the domain of the uber-geeks, but frankly, for the past decade this hasn't really been the case. There may still be a negative stigma, but there's no super-exclusive 'real gamer culture', and perpetuating the cycle of that ideology just reinforces the "lawl I'm special" view a tiny minority of gamers have that looks bad for the rest of us.Like I said, I'm a guy. I can't talk about female gamer culture as a whole. But I can say, unequivocally, stop perpetuating terrible stereotypes that originate in very small minority of the culture that the rest of us would just as soon forget exists. It has nothing to do with feminism or misogyny, and everything to do with people trying desperately to find some way to be elitist about their activities, and failing really really hard at it.

I have stared at the screen trying to figure out how I wanna say what I feel about this topic. I have issues with it. I have issues with relating to women. I have never in my life been girly. Pink is a scary color. Having said that...
1. I agree that female gamers are always sizing up the competition rather than giving a kind word. I have seen so many games where the teams are: a group of guys with a token female. And man is that female territorial!
2. I feel the fractures in geek world. I dont read comic books or watch anime or play RPGs. To a lot of people I am sooo not hardcore. Whatever! I was playing Magic before many of these new kids were even born!! Geek is geek. Its still just finding the geek you have in common. Just like the football players think they are so much more hardcore than the tennis players. Its all jock to me.
3. I don't like that people, including women, feel that the more casual aspects of gaming are for women in particular. I want my games to be loud, crass, bloody, and full of big guns. I dont usually have a female moment of gamers bubble bath and revert to something more quiet or less competitive. Writing articles on female gamers lumps us into a stero-type when the pen hits the paper. The same with old gamers, married gamers, black gamers, gay gamers... We are NOT all the same. I am an old, married, female gamer. It does not mean that I only play relaxing games as my husbands co-op partner.
4. I dont see that theres anything wrong with not identifying with the mainstream woman. I am 30 and still cant. I couldnt at 10 or 20 either. Because I have boobs it does not mean I have to love everyone who does. They certainly don't. I might as well be walking around with a tin foil hat on to keep out the government in their eyes. I cant reach out to every female gamer I find. And if I am nice to all of them, well thats a special treatment I dont give any other stereo-type. I judge the gamer as an individual. If you are worthy of my respect and partnership, that is determined by your person. Not your boobs. I have met some worthy competition, that still uses xbl as a trolling place for boys. Not my thing, sorry.I dont think this article is wonderful or terrible.I think its a great perspective from one woman. And more power to ya.

That's comforting to hear I was little worried this site was heading in a weird direction. I follow this site because I think its more relevant to what women want from gaming.LOL I love the comment above about guys getting huffy. Most guys don't get huffy with me. However there is a regular game night at my husbands work. Most the gals who come dont often want the more strategy heavy games. So it not an unfair assumption where the new guys at work don't consider me a threat. I have a rouge playing style and my husband and our friend try to warn them but they usually learn the hard way.In fairness to the guys as well the overcompensating of girl gamers often leads to their defensiveness. We played a one shot pathfinder game at Gencon. There was one other women in our table. The first thing she did ws try to engage me in girl talk. She eventuallly started ingoring the game in favor of chatting which I'm sure annoyed the other players as well.I'm all for chat but lets not be exclusive.

This was a terrible article. It enforces the myth of the 'sisterhood' and tries to explain how we're somehow responsible for the actions of misogynistic men, through our own 'misogynistic' behavior. Here's a news flash: if women hate other women, it's because they hate them as individuals.For the most part, this has nothing to do with misogyny at all. We aren't responsible for what men do, and though it's within our power to try to educate men on their behaviors, it's the responsibility of men and men alone to want to be educated. Many enlightened men know well enough not to behave this way, but it isn't the fault of "some woman" if someone behaves in a misogynistic manner. It is NOT our fault. Arguing that it is our fault is nothing more than internalized sexism, and that isn't what feminism is about.

Dislike of mean nasty women who mock gamers somehow translates to misogyny? That makes no sense.Men and women game differently. The sexes are different. Acepting people who have different interests and playing styles is basic polite was and decency.I used to be a feminst years ago. Because feminism has taught generations of women that they are victims alot of women overcompensate as gamers. They think they have to loud aggressive or obnoxious to compete. Women don't natural compete in the same way men do.I game with my husband and other serious gamers but sometimes I'm in the mood for lighter games. I've neve been "victimized"

I think I agree with almost everything said. Geek girls do need to have each other's backs, and all kinds. My friends are all sorts of geeks (gamers, scifi, anime, fantasy, science, etc.) and I think all kinds of geek should be appreciated. That's one of the reasons our blog celebrates so many different fandoms, because we may geek out over different things, but it's still geeking out!Also, definitely still a woman and a geek. I want my geek stuff to include women's t-shirts, accessories, and the ability to game without being immediately put behind my husband.I'll be keeping an eye out for most posts like this, because our whole blog exists because geeks and girls should and do come together, and we need to support each other!Rosalind
Girls Are Geeks

Great article! Now, can I see your boobs?(I am totally joking btw. Don't get mad!)

Great article! Thank you for writing this!I went through this similar woman-hate in my late teens, early 20s. Mostly it was borne out of frustration. Why couldn't I do X, when guys could do X without question? Did I have to get married and have kids to be a "real woman" etc. I used to wish I was born a man. Now I look back and realize how silly all of that was.I'm not entirely sure what led to the epiphany, maybe it was just the zeitgeist of the 2000's. Maybe it was just some introspection and question about who I really am. Maybe it was the fact a lot of my guy friends got married and stopped hanging out. Maybe its a little bit of everything. Either way, I'm happy with the result. "Geek" is a big tent, there's a lot of diversity in that tent. We should be proud of it.This is why groups like She's Geeky, Girls in Tech and sites like Gaming Angels are so incredibly important. I'm really proud to have brought She's Geeky to the Twin Cities.I look forward to reading the weekly column!

I don't know what to say about this bit I agree so wholeheartedly. I too am new to feminism and, yes I'm a gamer geek.I find the sexism in gamer culture shocking and repulsive. I once even brought it up in a post on my home community of older gamers. A place where I am well known and fairly well liked.The result? One of the most scathing, horribly written straw feminist articles on the front page. Got picked up by reddit too. All written by another woman.Why? Cause she hates other women? I don't know. But the sexism that came out in the comments was insane.Anyway. This is near and dear to me. I wrote a piece about sexy women, gamers and double bind of modern feminism once. I'm still figuring out what I think and how I am going to act.Either way it's nice to know there are women out there who have my back.Thank you

Thank you for putting into written words something I've been struggling with for years.

It was hard enough being an awkward, bean poll of a girl going into my local comic shop at age 14, asking for the latest Uncanny or Wolverine title, and have some guy stare blankly at me while chewing his own cud exclaim, "Are you picking those up for your brother?"

Fast forward a decade and change, I have grown and groomed myself into something society would consider "pleasing to the eye" and still continue my geeky pursuits of comic reading, video game playing, and dressing up like it's Halloween every chance I get. I have grown used to the comments from guys salivating over "what's beneath that spandex suit!" but cannot get past the slew of comments from women I find on the net, at conventions, or even at my local comic shop! "She's just some babe they hired to wear that outfit," or "You want the manga section, right? It's over there" (and that came from a girl at a comic shop I frequented in Orlando who was wearing an Avengers tee-shirt!). Though I am not a mainstay in the gaming world, I can attest I have encountered all this and more in my fandom of comic s and costuming.

I wish more geek girls would embrace their fellow females. While we've grown in numbers over the years, we're still a rare breed.

Thank you for your article, and you have a new reader to your site because of it!

I'm going to have to disagree with you in one teeny-tiny regard. It's not just geek women that display this sort of behavior. It's a wide-spread problem. Here's one study that discusses how women deal with other women in the workplace-- it's the same cycle of behavior. http://minds.wisconsin.edu/handle/1793/7222

Now, I'm a guy so maybe it's possible I've just missed all of this when hanging out with my gamer-girl friends. And, true, it's unquestionable that some of this exists, especially the so called "Hardcore gamer population" where people actually think things like u00e2u0080u009cOh, sheu00e2u0080u0099s not a real geek/sheu00e2u0080u0099s not a real gamer,u00e2u0080u009d with the understood end of the sentence being, u00e2u0080u009cu00e2u0080u00a6like I am.u00e2u0080u009d

I do feel as though I should point something out there. Girl or guy, people who actually think/talk/act like that are morons, and most gamers despise them. There's no such thing as gamer pride anymore. That might have been true when it was purely the domain of the uber-geeks, but frankly, for the past decade this hasn't really been the case. There may still be a negative stigma, but there's no super-exclusive 'real gamer culture', and perpetuating the cycle of that ideology just reinforces the "lawl I'm special" view a tiny minority of gamers have that looks bad for the rest of us.

Like I said, I'm a guy. I can't talk about female gamer culture as a whole. But I can say, unequivocally, stop perpetuating terrible stereotypes that originate in very small minority of the culture that the rest of us would just as soon forget exists. It has nothing to do with feminism or misogyny, and everything to do with people trying desperately to find some way to be elitist about their activities, and failing really really hard at it.

I have stared at the screen trying to figure out how I wanna say what I feel about this topic. I have issues with it. I have issues with relating to women. I have never in my life been girly. Pink is a scary color. Having said that...
1. I agree that female gamers are always sizing up the competition rather than giving a kind word. I have seen so many games where the teams are: a group of guys with a token female. And man is that female territorial!
2. I feel the fractures in geek world. I dont read comic books or watch anime or play RPGs. To a lot of people I am sooo not hardcore. Whatever! I was playing Magic before many of these new kids were even born!! Geek is geek. Its still just finding the geek you have in common. Just like the football players think they are so much more hardcore than the tennis players. Its all jock to me.
3. I don't like that people, including women, feel that the more casual aspects of gaming are for women in particular. I want my games to be loud, crass, bloody, and full of big guns. I dont usually have a female moment of gamers bubble bath and revert to something more quiet or less competitive. Writing articles on female gamers lumps us into a stero-type when the pen hits the paper. The same with old gamers, married gamers, black gamers, gay gamers... We are NOT all the same. I am an old, married, female gamer. It does not mean that I only play relaxing games as my husbands co-op partner.
4. I dont see that theres anything wrong with not identifying with the mainstream woman. I am 30 and still cant. I couldnt at 10 or 20 either. Because I have boobs it does not mean I have to love everyone who does. They certainly don't. I might as well be walking around with a tin foil hat on to keep out the government in their eyes. I cant reach out to every female gamer I find. And if I am nice to all of them, well thats a special treatment I dont give any other stereo-type. I judge the gamer as an individual. If you are worthy of my respect and partnership, that is determined by your person. Not your boobs. I have met some worthy competition, that still uses xbl as a trolling place for boys. Not my thing, sorry.

I dont think this article is wonderful or terrible.I think its a great perspective from one woman. And more power to ya.

That's comforting to hear I was little worried this site was heading in a weird direction. I follow this site because I think its more relevant to what women want from gaming.

LOL I love the comment above about guys getting huffy. Most guys don't get huffy with me. However there is a regular game night at my husbands work. Most the gals who come dont often want the more strategy heavy games. So it not an unfair assumption where the new guys at work don't consider me a threat. I have a rouge playing style and my husband and our friend try to warn them but they usually learn the hard way.

In fairness to the guys as well the overcompensating of girl gamers often leads to their defensiveness. We played a one shot pathfinder game at Gencon. There was one other women in our table. The first thing she did ws try to engage me in girl talk. She eventuallly started ingoring the game in favor of chatting which I'm sure annoyed the other players as well.

I'm all for chat but lets not be exclusive.

This was a terrible article. It enforces the myth of the 'sisterhood' and tries to explain how we're somehow responsible for the actions of misogynistic men, through our own 'misogynistic' behavior. Here's a news flash: if women hate other women, it's because they hate them as individuals.

For the most part, this has nothing to do with misogyny at all. We aren't responsible for what men do, and though it's within our power to try to educate men on their behaviors, it's the responsibility of men and men alone to want to be educated. Many enlightened men know well enough not to behave this way, but it isn't the fault of "some woman" if someone behaves in a misogynistic manner. It is NOT our fault. Arguing that it is our fault is nothing more than internalized sexism, and that isn't what feminism is about.

Dislike of mean nasty women who mock gamers somehow translates to misogyny? That makes no sense.

Men and women game differently. The sexes are different. Acepting people who have different interests and playing styles is basic polite was and decency.

I used to be a feminst years ago. Because feminism has taught generations of women that they are victims alot of women overcompensate as gamers. They think they have to loud aggressive or obnoxious to compete. Women don't natural compete in the same way men do.

I game with my husband and other serious gamers but sometimes I'm in the mood for lighter games. I've neve been "victimized"

I think I agree with almost everything said. Geek girls do need to have each other's backs, and all kinds. My friends are all sorts of geeks (gamers, scifi, anime, fantasy, science, etc.) and I think all kinds of geek should be appreciated. That's one of the reasons our blog celebrates so many different fandoms, because we may geek out over different things, but it's still geeking out!

Also, definitely still a woman and a geek. I want my geek stuff to include women's t-shirts, accessories, and the ability to game without being immediately put behind my husband.

I'll be keeping an eye out for most posts like this, because our whole blog exists because geeks and girls should and do come together, and we need to support each other!

Rosalind
Girls Are Geeks

Great article! Now, can I see your boobs?

(I am totally joking btw. Don't get mad!)

Thank you for saying so many things I have wanted to say but didn't have the words for. I'm excited to continue reading about your journey.

Great article! Thank you for writing this!

I went through this similar woman-hate in my late teens, early 20s. Mostly it was borne out of frustration. Why couldn't I do X, when guys could do X without question? Did I have to get married and have kids to be a "real woman" etc. I used to wish I was born a man. Now I look back and realize how silly all of that was.

I'm not entirely sure what led to the epiphany, maybe it was just the zeitgeist of the 2000's. Maybe it was just some introspection and question about who I really am. Maybe it was the fact a lot of my guy friends got married and stopped hanging out. Maybe its a little bit of everything. Either way, I'm happy with the result. "Geek" is a big tent, there's a lot of diversity in that tent. We should be proud of it.

This is why groups like She's Geeky, Girls in Tech and sites like Gaming Angels are so incredibly important. I'm really proud to have brought She's Geeky to the Twin Cities.

I look forward to reading the weekly column!

I don't know what to say about this bit I agree so wholeheartedly. I too am new to feminism and, yes I'm a gamer geek.

I find the sexism in gamer culture shocking and repulsive. I once even brought it up in a post on my home community of older gamers. A place where I am well known and fairly well liked.

The result? One of the most scathing, horribly written straw feminist articles on the front page. Got picked up by reddit too. All written by another woman.

Why? Cause she hates other women? I don't know. But the sexism that came out in the comments was insane.

Anyway. This is near and dear to me. I wrote a piece about sexy women, gamers and double bind of modern feminism once. I'm still figuring out what I think and how I am going to act.

Either way it's nice to know there are women out there who have my back.

Thank you